Sunday, January 2, 2011

A REPLY TO A DIALOUGE WITH A TRINITARIAN - THE INTERPRETATION OF THE MEANING OF "...with..." IN ENGLISH AT 1ST THESS 4:16

Hello Mr Jones.

It is obvious you have serious issues with what you call the "WT interpretation". Your mocking and sarcastic attitude in your reply to my comments does you no justice if you want to be known as a respectable scholar of the Bible.


1st THESS 4:16: “...ὅτι αὐτὸς ὁ κύριος ἐν κελεύσματι, ἐν φωνῇ ἀρχαγγέλου καὶ ἐν σάλπιγγι θεοῦ καταβήσεται ἀπ’ οὐρανοῦ καὶ οἱ νεκροὶ ἐν Χριστῷ ἀναστήσονται πρῶτον...” - (Greek NT)

1st THESS 4:16: "...because the Lord himself will descend from heaven ( WITH ) a commanding call, ( WITH ) an arch-angels voice and ( WITH ) God's trumpet, and those who are dead in union ( WITH ) Christ will rise first..." - (NWT - The New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, Matthew through Revelation 1984 Revision) 
 
My bringing to your attention that YOUR ( INTERPRETATION ) of what "WITH" means in the English translation of 1st Thessalonians 4:16, was only my first point (among several).

QUOTE: “...Yes, "with an archangel's voice," i.e. Christ will return "with his angels" (Mt 16:27; Mk 8:38; 2Th 1:7 NWT) and so the "archangel's voice" would be that of one of those angels who will accompany Jesus, and may well be Michael...” END QUOTE.

It is obvious that you mean the commanding call or voice in 1st Thess 4:16; of (the/an) arch-angel was accompanying Jesus, and not actually Jesus himself. 

NOTE: The literal translation of the Greek from the KIT:


1st THESS 4:16: “...ὅτι αὐτὸς ὁ κύριος ἐν κελεύσματι, ἐν φωνῇ ἀρχαγγέλου καὶ ἐν σάλπιγγι θεοῦ καταβήσεται ἀπ’ οὐρανοῦ καὶ οἱ νεκροὶ ἐν Χριστῷ ἀναστήσονται πρῶτον...” - (Greek NT)

1st THESS 4:16: "...because very one the Lord ( IN ) command, ( IN ) voice of arch-angel, and 
( IN ) trumpet of God, he will come down from heaven, and the dead ones ( IN ) Christ will stand up first..." - (The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures 1985)

What I was showing by the literal meaning of preposition (ἐν) "IN", is that (ἐν) is not a preposition that yields (YOUR) INTERPRETATION of "together with" or “accompanied by".

If that were the case the apostle Paul would have used (σῦν) or (μετὰ) as in the following:

LUKE 2:13: “...καὶ ἐξαίφνης ἐγένετο (σὺν) τῷ ἀγγέλῳ πλῆθος στρατιᾶς οὐρανίου αἰνούντων τὸν θεὸν καὶ λεγόντων...” - (Greek NT)

LUKE 2:13: “...And suddenly there appeared (σὺν) WITH the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying...” - (New American Standard Bible 1995)

Even the scriptures you cited as cross references:

MATT 16:27: “...μέλλει γὰρ ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ἔρχεσθαι (ἐν) τῇ δόξῃ τοῦ πατρὸς αὐτοῦ (μετὰ) τῶν ἀγγέλων αὐτοῦ, καὶ τότε ἀποδώσει ἑκάστῳ κατὰ τὴν πρᾶξιν αὐτοῦ...” - (Greek NT)

MATT 16:27: “...For the Son of Man is going to come (μετὰ) WITH his angels (ἐν) IN the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done...” - (English Standard Version 2001)

MARK 8:38: “...ὃς γὰρ ἐὰν ἐπαισχυνθῇ με καὶ τοὺς ἐμοὺς λόγους (ἐν) τῇ γενεᾷ ταύτῃ τῇ μοιχαλίδι καὶ ἁμαρτωλῷ, καὶ ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ἐπαισχυνθήσεται αὐτὸν ὅταν ἔλθῃ (ἐν) τῇ δόξῃ τοῦ πατρὸς αὐτοῦ (μετὰ) τῶν ἀγγέλων τῶν ἁγίων...” - (Greek NT)

MARK 8:38: “...If anyone is ashamed of me and my words (ἐν) IN this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes (ἐν) IN his Father's glory (μετὰ) WITH the holy angels...” - (New International Version 1984)

Or more to the point just two verses before verse 16 of Chapter Four of 1st Thessilonians:

1ST THESS 4:13: “...εἰ γὰρ πιστεύομεν ὅτι Ἰησοῦς ἀπέθανε καὶ ἀνέστη, οὕτω καὶ (ὁ Θεὸς) τοὺς κοιμηθέντας (διὰ) τοῦ Ἰησοῦ ἄξει (σὺν) αὐτῷ...” - (Greek NT)

1ST THESS 4:14: “...for if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also (ὁ Θεὸς) God those asleep (διὰ) through Jesus he will bring (σὺν) WITH him...” - (New International Version 1984)

Both (σῦν) and (μετὰ) ARE prepositions of personal accompaniment not (ἐν).

I was also pointing out (YOUR) interpretation appeared to be based solely upon an (ENGLISH) translation of the text.

Which is not as “absurd” as you would like to think or make it appear to your readers.

It is clear in this verse from the original Greek and the English, (to an un-biased reader) that Paul speaks of no other person or persons (Angels or Humans) other than Jesus who is (αὐτὸς ὁ κύριος) “the Lord (himself)” in this verse, and (οἱ νεκροὶ ἐν Χριστῷ) “the dead (ἐν) IN Christ”.

You are trying to stretch this verse to say something that it doesn't - which is even more clear when compared with the Greek. THAT IS MY POINT!

Jesus is not “...accompanied (by)...” or “...accompanied (with)...” or “...together (with)...” another person who is “...an arch-angel...” he is the one who is “...an arch-angel...” and therefore the obvious instigator and originator of the “...voice (of)...” and “...commanding cry/shout...”

Unless, perhaps, you think it is someone (other) than “the Son of Man's” (that is Jesus) VOICE that is heard at John 5:28,29. Perhaps it should read the “...(NOT) the Son of Man's (BUT) the other arch-angel (with) him … VOICE and come out...” if your interpretation was correct.

It's up to you! Which VOICE ( IS ) heard at the resurrection of the dead?

Jesus voice (as) an arch-angel? Or someone Else's voice who accompanies him?

The Bible is clear on this, it is Jesus “...( HIS ) VOICE...” (John 5:28) that is heard.

JOHN 5:28: “...μὴ θαυμάζετε τοῦτο, ὅτι ἔρχεται ὥρα ἐν ᾗ πάντες οἱ ἐν τοῖς μνημείοις ἀκούσουσιν τῆς φωνῆς αὐτοῦ...” - (Greek NT)

JOHN 5:28: “...Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear (αὐτοῦ) HIS (φωνῆς) VOICE...” - (New International Version 1984)

1st THESS 4:16: “...ὅτι αὐτὸς ὁ κύριος ἐν κελεύσματι, ἐν φωνῇ ἀρχαγγέλου καὶ ἐν σάλπιγγι θεοῦ καταβήσεται ἀπ’ οὐρανοῦ καὶ οἱ νεκροὶ ἐν Χριστῷ ἀναστήσονται πρῶτον...” - (Greek NT)

1st THESS 4:16: “...because the Lord (αὐτὸς) HIMSELF, in a shout, in [the] (φωνῇ) VOICE of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first...” - (Young's Literal Translation)

It is the same Greek word (φωνῇ) in both 1st Thess 4:16; and John 5:28; for “...VOICE...”

The ( SUBJECT ) of the verse (αὐτὸς) “...HIMSELF...” is emphatic in the Greek coming right at the start of the sentence and before the tittle (ὁ κύριος) and right after the purpose clause (ὅτι). You can't miss it in the Greek.
 
Your interpretation is a desperate attempt to avoid a difficulty that doesn't agree with your own personal theology.

I have no problem with the NWT translation of “WITH” because their ( INTERPRETATION ) of what “WITH” means in English is in more harmony with the John 5:28,29. That Jesus is the personal agent whose “voice” and “command” is heard by the dead in both scriptures (1st Thess 4:16; John 5:28,29;)

They interpret correctly that "WITH" means "WITH" - HIS ( OWN ) VOICE, not someone elses as you try to twist it to mean.

Whereas, you (and all other trinitarians) have to try and make the “...commanding-call...” and more particularly the “...VOICE...” someone Else's “voice” because it's to painful to admit JW's are right.

QUOTE: “...Yes. And "IN trumpet of God" shows how SILLY your argument is. Are you seriously claiming that Michael the archangel will be literally "IN" a trumpet?!...” END QUOTE

What you mock IS actually the word of God. I was pointing out what it actually says. Look at the following break down of the text:

1st THESS 4:16 Greek NT:
ὅτι
αὐτὸς ὁ κύριος
(ἐν) κελεύσματι,
(ἐν) φωνῇ ἀρχαγγέλου καὶ
(ἐν) σάλπιγγι θεοῦ
καταβήσεται ἀπ' οὐρανοῦ
καὶ οἱ νεκροὶ (ἐν) Χριστῷ
ἀναστήσονται πρῶτον,

Its a natural easy flow of thought:

...because...” = purpose clause
...himself...” = the subject
...the Lord...” = Jesus
...IN...IN...IN...” (ἐν) x three (in)
...will descend from heaven...”
...and the dead in Christ...”
...shall rise first...” x one (in) = total x four repetition of the preposition (in)

This is a description of what our Lord Jesus himself does, not someone else.

It is not the text, nor the NWT rendering that I am at odds with. It is ( YOUR ) INTERPRETATION of what the text means in English that I am at odds with.

QUOTE: “...Then either way, it makes no difference to my argument, which was: "Paul's `an archangel' [or archangel] implies that there is more than one archangel [as the Jews thought and the Bible indicates where Michael in Dn 10:13 NWT is just "ONE of the foremost princes"], otherwise he would have written `the archangel' if Paul had thought there was only one archangel."...” END QUOTE

For a start “...one of the ( PRINCES )...” is not the same as “...one of the ( ARCH-ANGELS )...”

The original language words are:

Hebrew ( שׂר ) - sar
Greek (εἷς τῶν ἀρχόντων)
Latin: (unus de principibus)

All meaning "...prince..." or "...princes..." 
No mention in the Hebrew, Latin of Greek of an ( ἀρχαγγέλος ) “...ARCH-ANGEL...” or “...ARCH-ANGEL(S)...” here.

Also note the literal readings from the Hebrew:

HEBREW (GREENS) INTERLINEAR LITERAL READING DANIEL 10:13: “...And I have come for your words. But the leader of the kingdom Persia stood against me twenty and one days. But lo, Michael one of the rulers ( FIRST ), came to help me. And I stayed there the kings of Persia...”

YOUNG'S LITERAL TRANSLATION DANIEL 10:13: “...And the head of the kingdom of Persia is standing over-against me twenty and one days, and lo, Michael, ( FIRST ) of the chief heads, hath come in to help me, and I have remained there near the kings of Persia...”

Legitimate readings.

Also from a comparison of the other verses that specifically mention him it is obvious that he is special and above any others who might be angelic princes:

HEBREW INTERLINEAR LITERAL READING DANIEL 10:20,21: “...said understand why came to you, shall now return to fight against the prince of Persia, I going and behold, the prince of Greece to come, [21] However, will tell is inscribed the writing of truth there one stands with against these for lo, Michael your prince...”

HEBREW (GREENS) INTERLINEAR LITERAL READING DANIEL 10:20,21: “...And he said, Do you know why I have come to you? And now I will return to fight with the ruler of Persia. And when I have gone out, then, lo, the ruler of Greece shall come. [21] But I will tell you what is inscribed in the writing of truth. And not one makes himself strong with me in these things except Michael your ruler...”

(LXX) DANIEL 10:21: “...ἢ Μιχαηλ ὁ ἄγγελος...”

(LXX) DANIEL 10:21: “...Michael, the mighty angel...” - (NETS A New English Translation of the Septuagint 2007)

(LXX-THEODOTION) DANIEL 10:21: “...ἢ Μιχαὴλ ὁ ἄρχων ὑμῶν...”

(LXX-THEODOTION) DANIEL 10:21: “...Michael, your ruler...” - (NETS A New English Translation of the Septuagint 2007)

(LATIN) DANIEL 10:21: “...Michahel princeps vester...”

HEBREW INTERLINEAR LITERAL READING DANIEL 12:1: “...time who stands Michael prince the great will arise over the sons of your people, occurred time of distress such never occurred, occurred A nation until time that, time he will be rescued your people everyone is found written the book...”

HEBREW (GREENS) INTERLINEAR LITERAL READING DANIEL 12:1: “...And at time that, shall stand up Michael the ruler great who stands for the sons of your people. And there shall be a time of distress, such as not has been from the existence of a nation until time that. And at time that, shall be delivered your people – everyone that shall be found written in the book...”

(OLD GREEK LXX) DANIEL 12:1: “...Μιχαηλ ὁ ἄγγελος ὁ μέγας ὁ ἑστηκὼς ἐπὶ τοὺς υἱοὺς τοῦ λαοῦ σου...”

(OLD GREEK LXX) DANIEL 12:1: “...And at that hour Michael, the great angel who stands over the sons of your people, will pass by...” - (NETS A New English Translation of the Septuagint 2007)

(LXX-THEODOTION ) DANIEL 12:1: “...Μιχαήλ ὁ άρχων ὁ μέγας ὁ ἑστηκὼς ἐπὶ τοὺς υἱοὺς τοῦ λαοῦ σου...”

(LXX-THEODOTION ) DANIEL 12:1: “...And at that time Michael, the great ruler who stands over the sons of your people, will arise...” - (NETS A New English Translation of the Septuagint 2007)

(LATIN) DANIEL 12:1: “...Michahel princeps magnus qui stat pro filiis populi...”

(SYRIAC) DANIEL 12:1: “...And at that time shall Michael arise, the great angel who has charge over your people...” - (Lamsa Bible Online - English Peshitta Translation (OT) from the Aramaic", by Dr. George M. Lamsa from the Aramaic Bible Society - August 2005.)

ὁ ἄγγελος ὁ μέγας = “...THEE (definitive) Angel the great (one)...”

ὁ άρχων ὁ μέγας = “...THEE (definitive) Ruler/Archon the great (one)...”

Jesus is concretely called an "...ANGEL..." in two verses that un-mistakabley apply to him in the OT:


(LXX) ISAIAH 9:6: “...μεγάλης βουλῆς ἄγγελος...”

(LATIN) ISAIAH 9:6: “...Magni Consilii Angelus...”

(LXX-ENGLISH) ISAIAH 9:6: “...Angel of the Great Council...” - Bagsters.

NOTE: The LXX or Septuagint is a JEWISH translation made approx: 300 B.C.E.

Also at: 

HEBREW INTERLINEAR LITERAL READING MALACHI 3:1: “...I am going to send my [mal'a'ki] messenger will clear the way before, will suddenly come [el] to his temple [ha-adown] and (the) Lord whom you seek, and (the) [u-mal'ak] [ANGEL] messenger of the covenant whom you delight, Behold is coming says YAHWEH [the LORD] of hosts...”

HEBREW (GREENS) INTERLINEAR LITERAL READING MALACHI 3:1: “...Behold I (am) sending My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And suddenly shall come to His temple, (the) Lord whom you (are) seeking, {even} [and] (the) Angel of the covenant, (in) whom you (are) delighting, Behold, He comes, says JEHOVAH of hosts...”

MALACHI 3:1: "...ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἐξαποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου καὶ ἐπιβλέψεται ὁδὸν πρὸ προσώπου μου καὶ ἐξαίφνης ἥξει εἰς τὸν ναὸν ἑαυτοῦ κύριος ὃν ὑμεῖς ζητεῖτε καὶ ὁ ἄγγελος τῆς διαθήκης ὃν ὑμεῖς θέλετε ἰδοὺ ἔρχεται λέγει κύριος παντοκράτωρ..." - (Greek OT: Septuagint with Diacritics)

(HEBREW-ENGLISH) MALACHI 3:1: “...the Angel (Heb. Malak; מַלְאָך) of the Covenant...”

(LXX) MALACHI 3:1: “...ὁ ἄγγελος τῆς διαθήκης...”

GREEK APOSTOLIC POLYGOT INTERLINEAR LITERAL READING MALACHI 3:1: “...Behold, I send out [the] my messenger, who shall prepare [the] way before my [prosoopou] face. And shall suddenly come into [the] his temple [the] LORD whom you seek, [kai] {even} [and] the [άγγελος aggelos] [ANGEL] messenger of the covenant, who you want. Behold, he comes, says [the] [κύριος] LORD [παντοκράτωρ] Almighty...”

(LATIN) MALACHI 3:1: “...angelus testamenti...”

At 1st Thess 4:16 there is a variant in the Greek.

First the standard text.

(GREEK NT) 1st THESS 4:16: “... αὐτὸς ὁ κύριος ἐν κελεύσματι, ἐν φωνῇ ἀρχαγγέλου...” - (Westcott / Hort, UBS4 Variants)


1st THESS 4:16: "...himself the Lord in [a] generals-commanding-call, in voice (of) [an] arch-angel and in trumpet (of) God..." - (My own rough literal translation.)

Hers a textual variant:

(GREEK NT-VARIANT) 1st THESS 4:16: “...αὐτός ὁ κύριος ἐν κέλευμα ἐν φωνή ἀρχάγγελος...” - (Tischendorf 8th Ed. with Diacritics)


1st THESS 4:16: "...himself the Lord in [a] generals-commanding-call, in [a] voice [an] arch-angel and in trumpet (of) God..." - (My own rough literal translation.)

Did you notice the difference? It's in the Greek suffix or word ending
 
ἀρχαγγέλ- ( ου ) “...( of ) an arch-angel...” = the genitive case.

Vs
 
ἀρχάγγελ- ( ος ) “...( a ) arch-angel...” or “...( an ) arch-angel...”

(LATIN NT) 1st THESS 4:16: “...in voce archangeli...”

Just a point of interest for those who may be interested and nothing else. I am not claiming it's a superior reading or anything like that. Just making people aware of it's existence.

The Syriac Version tends to make it definite and gives an interpretation of the word for Arch-Angel as "...the Head..." or "...the Prince..." of angels:

(SYRIAC NT) 1st THESS 4:16: “...the voice of the Arch-Angel...” - (LAMSA BIBLE)

1st THESS 4:16: “...the voice of the archangel*...” - (ARAMAIC BIBLE Translated by Victor Alexander 2000)
[FOOTNOTE]: *4:16.1 Lit. Ar. id.: "Head of the angels."

Barnes' Notes on the Bible: “...The Syriac renders it, "with the voice of the prince of the angels."...”

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible: “...the Syriac version renders it, "the head", or "prince of angels"...”

There is other suggestive language in the NT that points to Jesus being an angel:

GALATIANS 4:14: “...ὡς ἄγγελον θεοῦ ἐδέξασθε με, ὡς Χριστὸν Ἰησοῦν...”- (Greek NT)

GALATIANS 4:14: "...like an Angel of God received me like Christ Jesus..." - (APOSTOLIC / INTERLINEAR)

GALATIANS 4:14: “...as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus...” - (DARBY)
GALATIANS 4:14: “...as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus...” - (ESV)
GALATIANS 4:14: “...as an angel of God, [even] as Christ Jesus...” - (JB2000)
GALATIANS 4:14: “...as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus...” - (RSV)
GALATIANS 4:14: “...as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus Himself...” - (WILLIAMS) 



Psalm 8:5 Hebrew Study Bible (Apostolic / Interlinear)
וַתְּחַסְּרֵ֣הוּ מְּ֭עַט מֵאֱלֹהִ֑ים וְכָבֹ֖וד וְהָדָ֣ר תְּעַטְּרֵֽהוּ׃

(LATIN) PSALM 8:5: “...minues eum paulo minus a Deo...”

(HEBREW) PASLM 8:5 “...Yet thou hast made him little less than [elohim] God, and dost crown him with glory and honor...” - (RSV)

(HEBREW) PSALM 8:5 And causest him to lack a little of [elohim] Godhead, And with honour and majesty compassest him...” - (Youngs Literal Translation)

(HEBREW) PSALM 8:5: “...Yet you made them only a little lower than [elohim] God and crowned them with glory and honor...” - (New Living Translation 2007)

(HEBREW) PSALM 8:5: “...Yet You have made him a little lower than [elohim] God, And You crown him with glory and majesty!...” - (New American Standard Bible 1995)

(HEBREW) PSALM 8:5: “...For thou hast made him but little lower than [elohim] God, And crownest him with glory and honor...” - (American Standard Version)

(HEBREW) PSALM 8:5: “...For thou hast made him but little lower than [elohim] God, and crownest him with glory and honour...” - (English Revised Version)

(HEBREW) PSALM 8:5: “...For you have made him a little lower than [elohim] God, and crowned him with glory and honor...” - (World English Bible)

(ARAMAIC TARGUMS) PSALM 8:1: "...And you have made him a little less than THE ANGELS, and you will crown him with glory and brightness..." - (Targum Psalms, An English Translation by Edward M. Cook)

(SYRIAC) PSALM 8:5: “...for thou hast made him a little lower than angels, and hast clothed him with glory and honour...” - (Lamsa Bible OT)

(LXX) PSALM 8:5: “...ἠλάττωσας αὐτὸν βραχύ τι παρ' ἀγγέλους...”

(LXX) PSALM 8:5: “...Thou have made Him a little lower than THE ANGEL(S); with glory and honor have Thou crowned Him...” - (The Holy Orthodox Bible THE GREEK SEPTUAGINT IN ENGLISH)

(LXX) PSALM 8:5: “...Thou madest him a little less than ANGEL(S), thou hast crowned him with glory and honour...” - (Brenton's edition (Sir Lancelot C.L. Brenton), by Hendrickson Publishers. Originally published by Samuel Bagster & Sons, Ltd., London, 1851.)

(GREEK NT) HEBREWS 2:7: “...ἠλάττωσας αὐτὸν βραχύ τι παρ’ ἀγγέλους...”

(LATIN NT) HEBREWS 2:7 minuisti eum paulo minus ab angelis gloria et honore coronasti eum et constituisti eum super opera manuum tuarum

HEBREWS 2:7: “...Thou didst make him some little less than [ANGEL(S)] messengers, with glory and honour Thou didst crown him, and didst set him over the works of Thy hands...” - (Young's Literal Translation)

HEBREWS 2:7: “...Thou hast made him only a little inferior to THE ANGEL(S); with glory and honour Thou hast crowned him, and hast set him to govern the works of Thy hands...” - (Weymouth New Testament)

HEBREWS 2:7: “...Thou hast made him some little inferior to THE ANGEL(S); thou hast crowned him with glory and honour, and hast set him over the works of thy hands...” - (Darby Bible Translation)

(GREEK NT) HEBREWS 2:9: “...τὸν δὲ βραχύ τι παρ’ ἀγγέλους ἠλαττωμένον, βλέπομεν Ἰησοῦν...”

(LATIN NT) HEBREWS 2:9 “...eum autem qui modico quam angeli minoratus est videmus Iesum...”

HEBREWS 2:9: “...but we see Jesus, who was made some little inferior to ANGELS on account of the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; so that by the grace of God he should taste death for every thing...” - (Darby Bible Translation)

HEBREWS 2:9: “...But Jesus--who was made a little inferior to THE ANGELS in order that through God's grace He might taste death for every human being--we already see wearing a crown of glory and honour because of His having suffered death...” - (Weymouth New Testament)

HEBREWS 2:9: “...and him who was made some little less than [ANGELS] MESSENGERS we see -- Jesus -- because of the suffering of the death, with glory and honour having been crowned, that by the grace of God for every one he might taste of death...” - (Young's Literal Translation)

HEBREWS 2:9: “...But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than THE ANGELS, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone...” - (New International Version 1984)